Cabinet Planner
General >> Upcoming features >> Frameless overlay http://cabplanner.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=features&action=display&num=1263326208 Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 12th, 2010, 12:56pm
One major problem in the program is with figuring door & drawer front sizes for frameless cabinets with full overlay. I've always thought the only solution would be to have four overlay settings for each opening in every cabinet, but I think a possible solution would be to have four separate overlays for different situations.
Cabinet side overlay = 3/4 Top of top opening overlay = 3/8 Bottom of bottom opening overlay = 3/4 When two doors/drawers share a common divider/stretcher = 5/16
These settings would give overlays as below:
Am I missing anything or would this cover every possible situation? Of course combined cabinets would need to check whether a side has become a partition. Re: Frameless overlay
Post by mike on Jan 12th, 2010, 1:10pm
will same thing be true for framed cabinets? full overlay is pain enough with out having to figure doors and fronts!! Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 12th, 2010, 1:21pm
Sure, though framed cabinets aren’t really a problem since you can adjust the width of the middle stiles & rails to compensate.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 12th, 2010, 4:13pm
Rob,
I build full overlay frameless. I do use the metric systems but here is how it works. A frameless cabinet typically only has 1 opening per cabinet.
Door height= cabinet height - 3mm Door width= cabinet width -3mm Paired door width= (cabinet width / 2) - 3mm Drawer front height = adjusted so there is 3mm between each.
Not sure if you can do it this way but here goes
Have a setting for left/right overlay Have a setting for top overlay Have a setting for bottom overlay (some guys do 1.5mm top and 1.5mm bottom, while other do 0mm bottom and 3mm top hence the need for top and bottom settings) Have a setting for gap between paired doors Have a setting for gap between drawer fronts with an input for 2 of the 3 drawer heights or 3 of the 4 drawer heights.
I think that would cover it.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 12th, 2010, 6:13pm
If there's only one opening how would you be able to set the drawer opening heights?
Also, if there is only one opening then I assume nobody building frameless cabinets is using the combined cabinet feature?
How do you build vanities with only one opening?
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 12th, 2010, 6:26pm
"If there's only one opening how would you be able to set the drawer opening heights?"
Example for a 4 drawer base cabinet Cabinet height excluding toe kick is 768mm Bottom Drawer is flush with the bottom ( 0mm reveal) Top drawer is down 3mm from the tom ( 3mm reveal)
Top 3 drawers are 157mm tall Bottom drawer is 285mm tall So working from the bottom up including all the reveals you get 0 + 285 + 3 + 157 + 3 + 157 + 3 + 157 + 3 = 768mm
Where 0 or 3 is the gap/reveal
If you are building frameless correctly, all your hardware, door sizes, drawer sizes, etc work with the 32mm system. Virtually no measuring after the panels are cut. Cut panels, line bore, then its like Lego....it all just clips together.
"Also, if there is only one opening then I assume nobody building frameless cabinets is using the combined cabinet feature?"
I wouldnt say nobody uses the combined cabinet feature. I never have. I also wouldnt say everyone builds with just one opening per cabinet.....a second opening though is typically just a shelf that is fixed. Some guys build like this for tall cabinets, others will stack shorter cabinets. So a 3 opening tall pantry cabinet would actually be 3 cabinets stacked....but some guys will just put 2 fixed shelves in to create the 3 openings.
"How do you build vanities with only one opening?"
A vanity would just be several cabinets screwed together"
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 12th, 2010, 6:42pm
Hmm, I don't see how your explanation can be used in conjuntion with the program's editing windows as there are now.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 12th, 2010, 7:06pm
I cant help you with the programming and I have no idea how you have it set up.
I can answer any questions about frameless for you though.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 12th, 2010, 7:37pm
Going with the four settings I suggested and the sizes you gave, setting the middle rails to zero and then the "When two doors/drawers share a common divider/stretcher" overlay to -1.5mm would seem to work.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 13th, 2010, 04:09am
Your sizes should be 285, 157, 157, 157 going from bottom to top with a 768mm tall cabinet (excludes toe kick as we use a leg leveller)
If you set 3 of the 4 sizes, the software should calculate the 4th.
So for your example with the 2 drawers over 2 doors
Top drawers should be 157 tall Doors should be 605 tall
Lets assumme that cabinet is 600mm wide. Usually frameless will only have 1 drawer over 2 doors
The drawer front would be 600-3 = 597mm wide The 2 doors would be (600/2)-3 = 297mm wide each.
If you did use 2 drawers (and some guys will) they would be the same width as the doors.
The goal is to keep a constant 3mm gap between doors/drawers, and adjacent cabinet doors. The side of the cabinet gap should be 1.5mm so when 2 cabinets are screwed together you get 3mm between them. The bottom should be 0 and the top should be 3. This is so when you stack the cabinets you still have the 3mm gap. ( keep in mind, some guys will put 1.5 at the bottom and 1.5 at the top)
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by jim on Jan 13th, 2010, 05:06am
Four settings for each opening in every cabinet is the way to go.Thanks Jim.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 13th, 2010, 07:25am
I think Jim is right. Ive been trying to work through all the scenarios in my head.
Set bottom opening to 0, top opening to 3, left/right opening to 1.5 each and that should do it.
Will also work for those who build with balanced panels...set bottom to 1.5 and top to 1.5
Only thing I am not sure of is you have a cabinet with 2 doors....will it subtract 1.5 from each side of each door. I think it will as long as the middle stile is set to 0
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by dhg on Jan 13th, 2010, 08:19am
Sure, though framed cabinets aren’t really a problem since you can adjust the width of the middle stiles & rails to compensate.
If possible I would like to be able to adjust the door/drawer overlay independantly instead of adjusting the the stiles and rails. Pretty much all my S/R's are 1 1/2" wide. If you want a 1 1/4" o/l on the sides you need 1/2" o/l on the top and bottom of door and drawers. Currently if I try the 1 /14 O/L the drawers crash top and bottom unless I'm not doing something right.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 13th, 2010, 08:56am
The sizes in the photo above are the opening sizes. Assuming 18mm material it would give you the drawer front sizes you're looking for in a 768mm cabinet.
Having 4 settings for each opening isn’t practical. The tall custom would need 56 overlay settings to cover all possible configurations. And if you wanted to have them preset there would be around 400 settings with all the cabinet types. I don't think anyone wants that, I sure don't. Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 13th, 2010, 5:28pm
I think the best way to see if this works for everyone is with a test update.
link removed
Under the Standards menu there is a “Special overlay” selection. It has 5 settings. Side overlay- Top of top opening overlay- Bottom of bottom opening- Middle rails- Middle stiles-
The settings are only applied to the 4 drawer base and the plain base and the results are only given in the shop plan review window. Or, you can print out the shop plan but that’s a waste. The settings are only held in memory for now so if you close the program they will disappear.
They will not be applied to the base with a middle stile and two doors per opening, (too complicated for this experiment). Other than that they’ll be applied to the doors and drawer fronts of these two cabinets.
Jeff, enter the following: Side overlay, 16.5 Top of top opening, 15 Bottom of bottom opening, 18 Middle rails, -1.5 Middle stiles, 0 (probably not applicable)
Top opening, 143.5 Middle openings, 160
NOTE: You will need to reinstall the normal update after giving this a try.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Jeff on Jan 14th, 2010, 03:38am
Rob, I just tried it. I use 16.5mm material so I adjusted your settings as follows: Side overlay, 15 Top of top opening, 13.5 Bottom of bottom opening, 16.5 Middle rails, -1.5 Middle stiles, 0 (probably not applicable) Top drawer opening 143.5 2nd Drw Opening 160 3rd Drw Opening 160
It doesnt seem to have done anything correctly. Drawer sizes are still all wrong. Overlay still looks incorrect. The one setting I am not sure of was the "overlay" in the cabinet edit window that pops up when you double click a cabinet. I had it set to 15.
I have emailed you the shop plans output.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Jan 14th, 2010, 07:49am
Sorry Jeff, forgot to mention you need to set the middle rail width to zero and this test only works with slab drawer fronts.
Edit: You also need to adjust your top opening to 145 with the 16.5 material.
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Rob on Feb 12th, 2010, 7:34pm
Finally got it done. In the Door standards there is two checkboxes to select between standard overlay and special overlay. There's also five new entries for the different overlays. It's pretty self explanatory.
I also added a feature I've been toying with which will check to see if there is a new update for the program. It is under the Help menu and lets you set it to automatically check at program startup if desired.
Link removed-(this has been added to the regular release)
Re: Frameless overlay
Post by Doug on Sep 30th, 2011, 2:31pm
This might work, however I have always simply set a desired gap between doors drawers etc and then used that number to subtract from what ever door or drawer is affected.
If you are looking for a 3mm spacing and there are two adjacent doors simply subtract 2mm from each and you have what you need. Of course you would have to apply this logic to all four sides of the door.
